Friday, September 21, 2007

BabyBlue Asks A Question

At the Press Conference this afternoon with the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church, I asked a question. His answer on one hand does not show that he fully understands the depth of broken trust, while on the other hand he is clear in his support of the Dar Es Salaam Statement's calling for an an end to the Episcopal Church lawsuits.

Question:
My name is Mary Ailes and I am with Good News Magazine and a member of Truro Church in Fairfax, VA. My question has to do with - one of the things we’ve heard often from the Episcopal leadership is that we are free to go, but we have to leave the buildings behind – and how that often comes across to someone like me is “We have no need of you, but we have need of your building.” What would you say, Your Grace, to those of us who want to remain Anglican, but can’t at this time in good conscience remain Episcopalian? What would you say?

Rowan Williams: Two things, first I would say start by looking for arrangements and situations within what’s there because the grace of God is given even through very very imperfect organizations, even if you think you think the Episcopal Church is a hopelessly imperfect organization, like many others.

The question I would like to ask is but isn’t God’s grace still given sacramentally there, isn’t that presence active, so I’d be rather slower than I think some of your friends have been to look for solutions elsewhere.

I’ve said more than once and I think the primates in – earlier this year said very clearly that it is distressing to see the levels of litigation that the church is getting enmeshed in. I would still hope and pray that there’s a possibility at some - at somewhere around that doesn’t involve us as Christians in dragging each other to say finally through the courts for the next ten years and I would say that evenly across the board.

Here is a video, from my laptop, of Rowan Williams' opening statement. We'll have more from the Press Conference up shortly.



What is troubling in this statement is this: "The Primates asked for a response by 30 September simply because we were aware that this was the meeting of the House likely to be formulating such a response." He is minimizing the deadline and then reveals that he has no plans to call the primates together, as he has done before. He will consult them and then move on. He never says what he's going to do with all the consulting. He is not showing his cards as to what he plans to do. Looking over the meeting of the House of Bishops as it continues after his departure, Rowan Williams says, "I hope these days will result in a constructive and fresh way forward for all of us." But the Primates Communique offers us a standard by which we can measure that way forward - as Mouneer Anis made clear in his remarks before the House of Bishops today.

16 comments:

Anonymous said...

More of the same circular Canterbury Pie .... My wife tells me that when you roll and re-roll pie crust too much it becomes tough and inedible.

I suspect the Global South is not going to like the pie very much.

RalphM

Anonymous said...

I thought it was great that you asked your question right in front of the presiding bishop. Did anybody see if she made an expression after he made the comment about the levels of the litigation?

The Gathering in Granbury said...

Expression? That would require a jolt of emotion through the Presiding Marine Biologist's erstwhile stoney character.

Anonymous said...

"What would you say, Your Grace, to those of us who want to remain Anglican, but can’t at this time in good conscience remain Episcopalian? What would you say?

Rowan Williams: Two things, first I would say start by looking for arrangements and situations within what’s there because the grace of God is given even through very very imperfect organizations, even if you think you think the Episcopal Church is a hopelessly imperfect organization, like many others.

The question I would like to ask is but isn’t God’s grace still given sacramentally there, isn’t that presence active, so I’d be rather slower than I think some of your friends have been to look for solutions elsewhere."

Do I understand this correctly? Is he saying to ignore your conscience and remain an Episcopalian? He really doesn't "get" it.

Poor, poor Mary. I ache for you and all the others like you. I know this is so hard for you. While I know your FAITH is in God, you've had such hopes in, first, the Episcopal Church, then The ABC....

I was talking about this at work today with a friend. She started to cry - she was imagining how God must feel to see His body torn assunder like this. Jesus prayed that we would all be one just as the Trinity is one. Instead, God has to watch scenes like this.

Thank you so much for your reporting and keeping the rest of us up on what is happening.

Anonymous said...

Um, if you're not an Episcopalian anymore, and you clearly have no love for it anymore. Why are you going to a gathering of Episcopal bishops? Why don't you follow Akinola in Chicago since he's your spiritual leader these days? Just love a good fight don't you? You're in good company I suppose. Though, I suspect your faith could be better lived out not fighting but by loving and serving.

Anonymous said...

"Expression? That would require a jolt of emotion through the Presiding Marine Biologist's erstwhile stoney character."

Wow. I would hope she didn't show emotion on the question! The issue is a legal one...should she show anger or melt? It's a shame that the Global South isn't going to like the "pie", if that is the analogy. Maybe they shouldn't get all of it - maybe there should be some middle ground. I always considered the Episcopal Church the "big tent" where all were welcomed and loved as equals. Apparently not everyone agrees with me. That's a real shame.

Anonymous said...

"I always considered the Episcopal Church the 'big tent'".

It was a big tent - unless you believed in the role of scripture.

TEC has become a post-Christian experience, described perhaps best in Macbeth: "a poor player that struts and frets his hour upon the stage and then is heard no more".

RalphM

Anonymous said...

I have always thought the role of scripture was to teach. Tell you what, give me some scripture, tell me what YOU think it means and then tell me how the Episcopal Church teaches it differently. Ir is this the way that we Episcopalians are told that we are "non-Christians"? It seems to me the real end-game is to shut down the Episcopal Church in the US and to replace it with you brand of Christianity. Tell me I'm wrong. Even better, show me.

Anonymous said...

Yeah, he's saying you shouldn't have left. Grace was dispensed at Truro whether Martyn or Peter Lee was in charge. You blew it.

Anonymous said...

The question I would like to ask is but isn’t God’s grace still given sacramentally there ... ?

The "orthodox" answer to that question is YES. Contrary thinking is not "orthodox" as the archbishop rightly suggests with his returned question.

Unknown said...

As readers of this blog know, Anon 5:45 p.m., I am still am Episcopalian. I am an Episcopalian who has found refuge in a CANA parish. As I said in my question to Canterbury, "What would you say, Your Grace, to those of us who want to remain Anglican, but can’t at this time in good conscience remain Episcopalian?" His answer to me is that I should remain in the Episcopal Church and dismissed a plea for conscientious objection. He thinks we took refuge too early.

It looks like the Presiding Bishop of Jerusalem, the Archbishop of Nigeria, the Archbishop of Uganga, and the Bishop of Rochester have far more a pastoral response than Rowan Williams cold academic one.

Perhaps it is because he is trying to hold TEC in and decisions by thousands of Episcopal laity to find refuge elsewhere may hit closer to home than he may care to admit (he's catholic in his theology of the church). But he didn't say we were wrong to leave, he just thinks we left too soon. Too bad he didn't get to listen to David Booth Beers "we will bury you" speech to the evangelical members of Bishop Lee's Special Committee.

However, Rowan did get to hear some pretty mean spirited stuff on the floor of the House of Bishops. Perhaps after he meets with Henry Orombi he'll rethink his position. But yes, I found it heartbreaking.

The strange thing was he turns around in the next part and calls attention to his support of the (don't say the word though) Dar Es Salaam Communique that calls for a cease of the lawsuits. Since my parish hasn't sued anyone, who could he be speaking to?

bb

Ralph Webb said...

Baby Blue,

Here's what I would have asked Rowan Williams:

http://anglicanaction.blogspot.com/2007/09/what-i-would-have-asked-rowan-williams.html

Ralph Webb

Anonymous said...

The problem, Baby Blue, is that your parish didn't sue anyone because you squatted in Episcopal Property. The suit is to get you OUT of the Episcopal property. Suits are dirty things...but sometimes (and yes, this is one of those times) necessary. If you want to leave the Episcopal Church, then leave and start your new Anglican parish elsewhere.

Unknown said...

"property rights, please" - you appear to be the same person as "on a roll," "strong ship," and "let's behave."

Of course, Masked & Anonymous is one of our favorite films.

Be that as it may, as you may remember, the Bishop of Virginia
authorized the Diocese of Virginia Protocol for Departing Church (which both the Standing Committee and the Executive Board chose not to reject, though some members of those bodies did try, Bishop Lee convinced them to go forward). My parish and the other parishes in Virginia followed the Diocesan Protocol and Bishop Lee followed (as he had done with the Test Case, All Saints Dale City) to create a Property Committee. The All Saints Dale City test case showed the rest of us how it could be done with integrity, charity, and fairness and we were following in their footsteps. My parish vestry continued forward, responding to Bishop Lee's request that we appoint two negotiators to join his Property Committee and we moved forward, as All Saints had done.

Suddenly and swiftly, the Chancellor of 815 David Booth Beers met with Bishop Lee, the Standing Committee, and the Executive Board and a couple days after that meeting, Bishop Lee cancelled his Property Committee, inhibited the rectors and clergy, cancelled their heath care benefits (and the ability for the clergy to receive COBRA with no expense to the Diocese, by the way), and sued 200 lay volunteers and their rectors.

In August the judge in the lawsuits ruled out the Episcopal Church and the Diocese of Virginia portions of the lawsuit that said that the properties were abandoned and we were - as you put it - "squatting." We will find out come the November trial whether Division Statute of the Commonwealth of Virginia has been satisfied, since what we followed was the Diocese of Virginia's Protocol for Departing Churches which was based not only on the canons, but on Virginia Commonwealth law.

You have illustrated once again that progressive Episcopalians seem to care more about the stuff than the people. Right now I don't care if I worship in a field, but it's not about the property, it's about responsibility and stewardship.

New Orleans is filled with abandoned properties, property rights/on a roll/strong ship/let's behave, and some of those properties - some of them are just outside the door of my hotel - are beautiful and grand, but they are abandoned. Those who are left behind here in New Orleans do not have the resources to maintain them and so they sit, neglected and falling into disrepair and decay.

I am not sure, roperty rights/on a roll/strong ship/let's behave if those who hold your views truly comprehends what a "New Orleans" situation will be on the hands of dioceses if thousands flee their church homes and never come back. But if you want to see what that kind of abandonment looks like, come on down here to New Orleans and see for yourself.

bb

Anonymous said...

bb, your emotions betray you. Having identified yourself as both a reporter for Good News Magazine and a member of Truro Church, it was generous of Rowan Williams to respond to you at all. The personal nature of your question is not an example of a particularly high journalistic standard, and using your press credentials to advance your own agenda is similarly lacking. Bad form all round.

Anonymous said...

The fact that you are in any way connected with "Good News" magazine completely erases any credibility you may have. I would only hope that your reporting would be more truthful than the half-truth's and diatribe espoused by the Good News tabloid.