Watch the whole thing here.Joining the Time Magazine Cover Story, we now have the TEC Presiding Bishop, Katharine Jefferts Shori coming in as reinforcement. Live Blogging: It is a Puff Piece, could have been produced by 815. If you look at a squid, what does it tell you about the world? "The body of God being all creation." So now the Body of God is Creation! AHHH!!! Commentary coming. I must have a chai. Feel free to post your own commentary. Religion is at its best is an invitation into a relationship - not a set of instructions of how to deal with every challenging person in the world. Ying and Yang. Ying and Yang. Ying and Yang. Oh my gosh - now she's saying that Jonathon had a homoerotic love for David. AHHH!!! Now she says that scripture is just a culture book. Bible says gay sex is okiedokie. Please, watch this video. She has no tolerance for any other view then her own. She says that the issue is a "moral issue" and there is no other way, no via media - one way or the other it's a moral issue, like Slavery! Like Slavery! Those who support the biblical view of human relationships are like Confederates, like those who thought slavery was moral. Oh my gosh. She wants to re-educate Christians to accept homosexual intercourse as a moral thing, because we have a Greek heritage. Oh my gosh, now she's dividing the male "spirit" and the "female" spirit. Oh, now she's talking about women leadership (is she following talking points???? Women? Slavery? Gallileo?????). It's between "Modernists" and "Traditionalists." She's painting that it's what she calls the "traditionalists" aren't listening. Oh, it made her "very sad" - she knows what it's like to be excluded from the Table. A few more people may have to decide to go somewhere else because we don't accept this "innovation" but it won't tear the church apart. They are functioning in a very different context - that's why the African Church is exploding in membership and the reason is because "it's less clearly defined" which is what BISHOP SPONG SAID DURING LAMBETH 1998. Sorry for shouting. Oh, here comes the Nigerian laws - and now she's attacking Peter Akinola - she has no idea. No idea what he's been doing during the past several months to get that legislation tabled. She's never called him to ask him what he's doing or helped him get it done. This is a propaganda talking point. Why did that legislation disappear? Ask yourself - how did that happen? Yes, there is a difference in context but it's the Americans imposing agnostic modernity onto Africa. Now she's whining and attacking Archbishop Akinola in a way I've never seen her do.
What is going on? What is God asking you to do? It's all about people self-actualizing. A painful thing to do - hope for a broader understanding if we "pause." Push pause. It's not fair - a "crucified place to stand." Can you imagine if Bob Duncan talked like this?????
Stain Glass Ceiling - Seeds of an Alternative View. Gender Free. The words are "Tradition" - not Faith or Gospel, it's a little "tradition" that can be cast off as so irrelevant to our modern way of living.
In the feminine?
And her idea of gospel work is people doing things. Oh my goodness.
How can I be an Episcopalian? This is the Episcopal Church? Watch this interview for yourself. This is what I've seen at General Convention since my first one in 1994 - but now it's all over the Church since 815 is imposing its will over the dioceses and the dioceses outside the ACN are capitulating. Virginia held for so long, but now it's capitulating as well. The PB represents The New Episcopal Church.
This interview is a fine example of how The Episcopal Church has left us. Watch it. You can also see it at Anglican TV.
UPDATE: AAC has the full transcript of the interview here.
We had Bach up, but now we've switched to Mozart's Requiem:
17 comments:
OH MY ... where do I begin?????
She wants to re-educate Christians to accept homosexual intercourse as a moral thing, because we have a Greek heritage."
Not to be crude, but I have walked with folks outside the Church and not that sheltered, would SOMEBODY please explain what "Greek sex" is to the PB. (If you don't know, please don't ask me, but a hint is I'm ROTFL on that one).
Also she has Gnosticism confused with Christian tradition. It was the Gnostics who said man was Spirit and woman flesh, or maybe she read too much Gospel of Thomas (there is a reason Nicea didn't include it in the cannon [one reason is that found to be written around then]).
Bill Moyer really when out of his way to side with her. It was one of the most basis interviews I've seen in a long time. He also only appears to have a sketch knowledge of Christian believe (maybe he's an Episcopalian [*Wink*]), for in some areas researchers have fed him great information but in a follow-up question it becomes painfully obvious that he has no clue about this stuff.
Typical of the connection to GLTB slavery and WO. Not surprised to hear the David thing, not as if even liberal scholars usually discount that view, but it's the only hope with Gen 19, Lev 18 Lev 20, Rom 1 and others clear passages.
Does seem the movie Dogma is becoming reality when I watch this stuff.
Schori's heretical new age views will speed the apppeal of those seeking pastoral provision from Anglican bishops outside the USA and even from Rome.
The women's ordination angle is a curious card to play since there are now a number of former ECUSA women priests who have renounced orders and departed to Eastern Orthodoxy. I hear from such women on a regular basis, but I bet TEC isn't tracking that statistic.
"Oh, here comes the Nigerian laws - and now she's attacking Peter Akinola - she has no idea. No idea what he's been doing during the past several months to get that legislation tabled. She's never called him to ask him what he's doing or helped him get it done."
I guessed I missed something. What has Akinola done? It sounds like it must be significant.
It was the second time it had been shelved. It was shelved late last year but then pulled up again after the American activists drew global attention to it and the Nigerian Muslim activists saw the global attention over it and brought it out again (a political maneuver, just like you'd see in the States). It took quiet diplomacy to get it shelved again and it wasn't clear it would be shelved until the legislature concluded (remember, Nigeria is very much endangered to become another Iran, as our good friend Bono has spoken about publicly) - but there are times when it's clear that The Episcopal Church doesn't seem to care about anything but their own agenda regarding how they portray leading African men who dare to be uppity, even if it means putting at risk Nigerian Christians - I'm not sure if it's naiveté or foolishness - I choose not to believe it's for darker motives, at least for the majority, at least that's my prayer. But none of this was covered by the Episcopal Church. If TEC leaders truly cared about Nigerian Christians (as Bono apparently does, and he's Mr. MDG), they would have covered the story to the conclusion. They got very quiet too and I hoped that meant that they did know about the quiet dipolomcy and so they were also keeping a low profile. But then I hear KJS pull it all up again, as though unaware of the Nigerian legislature process and I was shocked.
Where was ENS when the Archbishop was going into Northern Nigeria to install missionary bishops in hostile Islamic territory (they get killed there, you know)? Where was ENS when he went to meet the new Sultan (the former one was killed in a plane crash) prior to the Nigerian House of Bishops meeting?
But the silence of ENS over what they cover - and more importantly, what they don't cover - speaks louder than any words I might say. The silence over what happened to the Nigerian legislation speaks louder than any words. I mean, if I know about it they should know about it. I think they do know about it and that's why they remain silent. Talk about sad.
Does KJS really think that Africans are not as complex and sophisticated as she is? Does she truly think that Nigerian Christians are lesser for not thinking as she does? She really seems to think she is advanced and complex and that Africans are engaging in some kind of backwards Christianity that she's progressed away from.
It would be quite interesting if KJS went to Northern Nigeria with Archbishop Akionla and see for herself what he is dealing with in his "context." His province is only a few steps away from Iran's fate and if KJS is as complex as she thinks she is, perhaps this might show her to see the reality of what we are all facing in a world at war.
bb
BB - You need to check the facts on, "We've also learned that Gene Robinson has published an open letter to Bob Duncan." Robinson never wrote this letter. On the original website, there is a video about Ronbinson posted above the letter, but the letter is not by Robinson. Here is the original letter - by Josh Thomas, not Gene Robinson. On SF, Greg Griffith has apologized for the mistake.
The letter from http://www.dailyoffice.org/onthegayissuepray.html
====================
The Gay Issue Can Only Be Understood through Prayer
An Open Letter to the Bishop of Pittsburgh
Right Reverend Sir:
As you prepare to effect schism, pro or con, I have a humble request.
....
Jesus told us: We don’t have ears anywhere close.
Many times I've been earless; don't put yourself in that way.
Ultimately I think it’s all about surrendering to the Lord on our knees; he’s God, we’re not, get used to it.
Sincerely yours,
Josh Thomas
Founder, dailyoffice.org
January 10, 2007
Sorry BB, CANA has been week on support of Article 20 while making claims of Article 19 on a property suite. The only reason it was shelved was international pressure (including from the US State Department), yet Jim Oaks' op ed is just as damaging to those who work for Article 19 in place like you charge ENS for failing.
I don't excuse ENS silence but nor do I excuse CANA for its polity over principle, ditto on TEC for the very same reason.
On an up note, kudos to Greg Griffith for showing an example of how to be in error and not entrenching yourself in it.
Sigh.
We were talking about KJS's ill-advised remarks about the Archbishop of Nigeria (in my memory she has not repeated the progressive-activist view in public before, not herself personally - it seems that she is attempting to keep the progressives in the fold from bolting after Gene Robinson was not - yet - invited to Lambeth - I think that's why she's attacking him so publicly so suddenly - remember, the Bishop of California has written to the progressives that backroom diplomacy is underway and to sit tight and be patient - we see evidence of it in this interview of KJS and Bill Moyers).
Passionate discussion is not only welcomed here at the Cafe, it's encouraged. Letting off steam is okay here too - but let's not start throwing cream pies. Ok? I admit, I started baking some pies, but have now thought better of it and we're flipping pancakes instead.
bb
BB:
Thank you for your comments in response to my question. It was my impression that Akinola was in favor of the legislation, so I am indeed very confused. Clearly, I am far out of the loop. Is there any documentation or news story / stories that state Akinola's actions and/or advocacy or opposition concerning this legislation? I am simply amazed to learn that he worked to have this tabled, when everything I had heard indicated that he supported this. I feel that I have been or am being misled somehow, and am a little frustrated. I'm an isolated reasserter in a moderately reappraising parish and diocese, so I'm bound to be out of the loop. Generally I have appreciated Akinola, but not this legislation, which seemed to go much too far.
Sorry to be off topic a bit. I thought +Katherine's interview was ridiculous, and that Moyer's claim that she knew the Bible as well as squids may indicate she knows little about squids.
One of the very good things about building Christian community beyond our borders is that we learn from each other - in ways perhaps we could never imagine. The idea that we Americans know everything is absurd, but we do know some things. And African Christians may be learning about some things, but there are other things they know better than we do. Their faith is tested in ways we can't imagine. How we walk together, learning from each other I think is based on the common ground of Jesus Christ, and the forgiveness we find in the His cross. Hallelujah, Christ is Risen! I need to remember that when I get discouraged, as I was listening to this interview.
Thank you so much for posting, rb.
bb
BB,
You are engaging in spin (aka deception [aka bordering on bearing false witness]). While ++Akinola is not on record solo, he chaired the standing committee which did endorse the law.
In this one issue, ++KJS has been more balanced than you have been here, stating the context ++Akinola operates in, but also holding him to account for his support of law which violates the VERY thing you held to about Iran!!
There is plenty of other parts of this interview to pick apart, but the ++Akinola chauvinism as unattractive and possible stumbling block as national jingoism.
Once I sided with him, but when the evidence of the situation was objectively presented (text of law, text of the two SC documents), Mdlawlib had it correct with point to Pastor Martin Niemöller for the text of the law does read similar to that the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei passed.
This issue is to ++Akinola as approving Henry VIII divorce was to Cranmer or Martin Luthers later in life anti-semitism. It is a stain that attempts to spin only lose creditability.
It's a shame, for you had many other area to blast ++KJS, but this one area, she actually is correct, first in giving credit for the context and pressures but also in an endorsement of unethical law.
FYI - the First Amendment principle, which later Article 20 UN UDHR embodied, is the exact reason the US Supreme Court ruled that Boy Scouts can bar homosexuals from serveing in leadership.
Permitting erosion because we don't like to subject of the protection is actually very foolish. In a purely subjective world, a mere change of power and we can find ourselves in need of the very same protection. Thus why Pastor Martin Niemöller is a very apt commentary.
Kevin, please don't throw the banana cream pies.
-Mary
Mary, I didn't.
I once blindly defended ++Akinola on this very issue. When an office mate of your spoke, it was an independent outside voice.
I looked at the issue. I looked at the actual law produced. I looked at the two standing committee reports that GLBT community produced. I found the US State department release on the issue.
Those documents lined up differently than CANA has presented them. I change my view because I believe ethics are discovered and not invented, like mathematics (absolute truth verse relative truth) and found I was supporting the unethical side. The text of the law did read as presented and the banana cream pie is saying it does not for CANA political reasons.
There come a time when Greg's example is the better way of handling a mess.
I can't stand NAMBLA. The punks and freaks I hung out with (unscientifically)had about 1/3 female & 1/10 males being a victim of sexual abuse (all types). RAINN quotes a DOJ statistic of 1/6 female & 1/33 males victim of sexual crime. I have just a little passion on that issue of protecting innocence, however I'd be against jailing people just for belonging to NAMBLA, there are better ways to combat that evil (shaming GLBT community to self-police, insuring laws are maintained, suing an organization for every penny if it's advocacy proven to bring harm, making it's members one step closer for probably cause in warrants [not only reason but open advocating legalizing drugs could up the 'probably cause' as much as previous arrests {meaning not only reason but additive reason}]).
FACT:
1 Law was to silence talking about homosexuality and peace fully assembly, one penalty is jail time.
2. ++Akinola chaired the Standing Committee which twice issued supported law (he has been silent on his own)
3. +Minns issues a statement that ++Akinola is not in favor of jailing homosexuals (but does not address the proposed law)
4. Law is tabled after much international pressure.
5. +KJS mentions ++Akinola's support but also does mention Islam pressure in same interview. BB try to make a snide remark on ++KJS on the ONE issue I think she got correct (pity for Lesbian etymology could have a great deal of fun for her ignorance).
When you defend a friend, even with skirting telling a untruth, then that friend can become an idol, just as our favorite politician or any other fallen creature.
The first thing the Nazi party did to secure power was round up anyone who opposed them and banned their assemble as treasonous, that is why there was such an international outcry and pressure.
If "Never again" is a cream pie, I'm sorry, I'd rather stand on principle than a relativism in relation to CofN.
The words are whirling around like a hurricane in Florida. A great deal of wind, thunder and lightning, while the roofs blow away and the trees fall on the houses, Beware of the calm--it may only be the eye of the hurricane. Do the true believers huddle in the closet, try to seek shelter somewhere else, or go out and get blown away by the storm?
The Old Circuit Rider from Florida
Circuit Rider is right. Where do we go? Do we hide? Are we exiled? Or are we lost? Sometimes we do hide in the place that is safe. Sometimes there is time to flee for higher ground. And sometimes there is no other place to go but to stand in the storm, ride through the storm, hold on tight to what is strong, while some are blown to the sea.
Lord have mercy, Christ have mercy, Lord have mercy.
Perhaps it's not so much what we hold on to as Who is holding on to us.
bb
Baby Blue, your last line sums it up. "Where can I go but to my Lord?"
The Old Circuit Rider
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