Thursday, February 01, 2007

And your little dog too ...

Learning more about the lawsuits the Diocese of Virginia (with a little help from their friends up north) filed all over the place yesterday. One thing is for sure, it sounds like the Diocese wants to throw hundreds of children out of their Sunday Schools and into the streets - and the diocese keeps their crayons. Doesn't that just about sum it all up in nutshell?

But then, as we learned earlier from the Presiding BIshop, The Episcopal Church really doesn't have a lot of children, so wonder what they'd do with all the crayons? Thoughts?

bb

24 comments:

DGus said...

Here is a guest editorial in today's Richmond Times-Dispatch, by Senior Warden of the Falls Church, Tom Wilson:

http://www.timesdispatch.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=RTD%2FMGArticle%2FRTD_BasicArticle&%09s=1045855935007&c=MGArticle&cid=1149192955735&path=%21editorials%21oped

Anonymous said...

Thoughs? The ADV reaps what is sows.

rschllnbrg1@MSN.COM said...

Hey anyone else ever thought about the fact the Presiding Bishop's previous experience was working for years with organisms that had no backbone?

Does that make her an expert on this sort of thing?

Hmmmm. You know you couldn't really write this stuff as fiction. No one would believe it.

Anonymous said...

And here's an ironic wrinkle on the crayon situation. At the Falls Church, when negotiations were ongoing about when an "Episcopal" service could be scheduled to take place (i.e., before the Diocese squashed that conciliatory effort), the "Episcopalians" were requesting that their service be on Sunday morning (not afternoon), so that while the adults received an Episcopal Eucharist in their worship, their children could go to the Sunday School program run by those whom Bishop Lee calls "Nigerians."

TWilson said...

Not just Sunday school - Truro operates a pre-school/kindergarten with around 190 students, plus staff and teachers. Many of these individuals and their families are not Truro attendees, though they could become "quiet casualties."

Suffer the little children...?

Anonymous said...

Perhaps they can melt the crayons and make rainbow-colored candles.

Anonymous said...

LOL on the rainbow candles!!
Art+

Dr. Mabuse said...

The ADV reaps what is sows.(sic)

Also known as the "She was asking for it" gambit. Nice to see a preview of the diocese's courtroom strategy.

Anonymous said...

Give the crayons to the 815/DioVA lawyers, but keep a sharp eye on them so they don't write on the walls--or take the crayons home without permission.

A simple country lawyer

Anonymous said...

I think you're very cranky, and when the kidlets in my Sunday School class are cranky, I put them down for a nap.

Sudansong said...

rschlinbrg1 -- Actually someone did write this stuff as fiction. Our man over at Midwest Conservative Journal had a running novel about TEC back when it was still ECUSA.

Simple country lawyer -- You said, Give the crayons to the 815/DioVA lawyers, but keep a sharp eye on them so they don't write on the walls--or take the crayons home without permission. Or poke someone in the eye with one!

Padre Wayne said...

Posted message: "...it sounds like the Diocese wants to throw hundreds of children out of their Sunday Schools..."

Hardly so. The Diocese wants the adults of the parishes to take responsibility for their actions. It is those adults who are taking the children out of the Sunday Schools, and it is the dissenting adults who, if responsible people, must provide a new Sunday School venue for them. The Diocese is pursuing what it feels to be its legal/fiduciary responsibility. No more, no less.

Anonymous said...

"...The Diocese is pursuing what it feels to be its legal/fiduciary responsibility. No more, no less..."

As was recently observed on a vehicle in VA: "The Episcopal Church: It's the Property, Stupid!"

Anonymous said...

Padre Wayne: We've waited for the Diocese to be adults: step up and be accountable for their actions of the last 40+ years. They and the TEC "borrowed" the car and we're still waiting for them to come home and face the music. TEC=Roadtrip.

Kevin said...

Just remember, like all coloring books 815, the secret is to stay inside the lines, I know it's fun to scribble all over the page, but the lines are our friend, you need to stay inside the lines.

BabyBlue said...

How to make Crayon Candles

Materials Needed:

Crayons
Candle Wicks
2 Pint Milk Carton
Ice


Instructions

Candlemaking can be can be both fun and dangerous. You should never try any projects that use heat and fire without an adults help, and always follow candle safety rules.

Cut off the top of the milk carton so that you have a "box" with one end open. Next, Melt crayons over medium heat (there are plastic bags available that you can place the wax or crayons in so that you then just place that bag into boiling water to melt).

The crayons can be broken and different colors, but the washable type do NOT work well. You can use the wax for candle crafts found at the discount stores and add just a few crayons of the desired color to tint it. Place wick into the milk carton and fill carton will ice. Be sure that the wick is fairly centered and running the entire length of the carton. Now, pour melted wax/crayon mixture into the carton filling to the top. Let sit until hardened and ice has melted, then carefully cut and peel away the carton from the candle.

You will now have a candle made out of crayons. The ice in the carton caused the wax to quickly harden around the cubes. The result is a "swiss cheese" looking candle. Each one looks a little different! These must be handled carefully after finished as the swiss cheese nature of the candle makes it fragile.

Helpful Hints

One, make sure the ice is crushed well - too large and your candle will not stay together; and two, use a taper candle in place of the candle wick. Taper candles are far easier to acquire than the wicks if you don't have a good craft shop nearby.

BB NOTES: Ever knew there was more than meets the eye to candle making?

Padre Wayne said...

anonymous wrote: Padre Wayne: We've waited for the Diocese to be adults: step up and be accountable for their actions of the last 40+ years.

I believe the leaders of the Diocese (and TEC) have behaved with a sense of responsibility -- to wit, understanding and acknowledging that we have caused division within the Anglican Communion, all the while recognizing that the Holy Spirit might be leading us in a new direction. What they/we are not willing to do is shrink from our responsibility to -- ultimately -- God for the sake of "unity."

Chris said...

If the Episcopal Church is not full of "breeders" then evangelism should be even more important to the clergy and laity.

Its great to know my former church home at TFC and current church home in Texas are full of children and youth!

Anonymous said...

Padre Wayne - You "believe" the Diocese (and TEC) have behaved with a sense of responsibility. Belief isn't fact. The protocol process alone shows bad faith as well as a lack of responsibility and accountability...unless the whole "sense" was to delay and buy time. You above have at least admitted cupability in causing division. How you can make it a good thing and head off in such a direction with the destruction in your (TEC) wake because the Holy Spirit "might" be leading in a new direction is beyond me and a much larger group than the TEC wants to admit.

When is someone in the TEC going to step up and say where the "line" is? Who makes it? Here's one...Jesus Himself said God hates divorce. Of course, if we all do what we are supposed to, there wouldn't be a need for it, would there? But here, Jesus made Himself clear as day and yet divorce is OK enough for a leader/bishop to have been divorced twice and married thrice? Against multiple Scripbural passages - not just Jesus' own words? For the past 2000 years and even a few thousand before that we have left this authority in God's hands based on Scripture. While changes have happened, it has always been through the filter of Scripture and a reliance on GOD. God says do not kill, yet there's Episcopalians wanting abortion as a pillar in the TEC yet don't want to put a murderer to death because it would violate the criminal's rights. What about that child who was created because two people didn't use responsible discernment? What's next? What happens if YOU don't like it? What's YOUR recourse? And don't forget your(or our) forefathers buried out in the church yard who witnessed Christ to you and your forefathers. What is to keep the TEC from ploughing over the cemetery and putting in an apartment high-rise. Vote on it at GC...that's all it takes, right? Where's the accountability...because holding it up to the light of Scripture doesn't count. If so, where? When? These questions remain ignored.

What the TEC has said to everyone, and some of us comprehend the ramifications, is anything the TEC wants goes. And the TEC doesn't want to be accountable for it. They just "wants" it all. The TEC's appetite will never be satiated because it is focused on its own desires.

You want to believe in a church that exemplifies that...go ahead. I won't. Because you mention the Holy Spirit, please pray for Its discernment, God's discernment, Jesus' discernment. Bad consequences don't come from God. Fear doesn't come from God. What the Diocese of VA, TEC and the like are doing - it isn't good. Every good thing comes from God.

Padre Wayne said...

anonymous wrote: "God says do not kill, yet there's Episcopalians wanting abortion as a pillar in the TEC...What is to keep the TEC from ploughing over the cemetery and putting in an apartment high-rise...What the TEC has said to everyone, and some of us comprehend the ramifications, is anything the TEC wants goes. And the TEC doesn't want to be accountable for it..."

This is fear-mongering.

TEC behaves as an autonomous province in the AC, acknowledging the bonds of affection (I'm not feeling much affection from half the provinces, by the way) yet unwilling to refrain from moving in the direction we feel the Spirit is calling us. We try as best we can to discern God's desire, God's joy, God's love. It is certainly possible to get it wrong. To say "I know the will of God is presumptious on either side. But to ignore the promptings of the Holy Spirit for the sake of "unity" would be presumptious as well.

Anonymous said...

In order for movement ahead, you have to have agreement. THAT you and the TEC do NOT have from the rest of us or the rest of the AC. Yep, TEC "behaves as an autonomous provice in the AC" - without any concern or care to rest of us in the TEC who vehemently disagree with the direction YOU/TEC "feel" the Spirit is calling YOU/TEC, or the rest of the AC when you've been called into accountability to stop what you/TEC are doing!

According to Wikipedia: Fear mongering is the use of fear to leverage the opinions and actions of others towards some end. The object of fear is exaggerated; those the fear is directed toward are kept aware of it on a constant basis.

No, Padre Wayne, it is asking for the umpteenth time for you and the TEC to state how the TEC is acountable - to me and others as members, to the AC as a group, and to GOD whom we are all accountable.

My mother, who is not "orthodox", originally wanted her ashes placed in the memorial garden at the church I grew up in. Now, SHE, who has been cast aside from the path of the TEC, does not want to have that done now. She is in her 70's and instead of having peace about where her remains will be for eternity has fear. Because she wants her ashes at a place that remains in the traditional teaching of Christ. This fear for her is very real, and it is not exaggerated. And this is being offered as an example.

My mom would not be counted in what +Schori's labeled the "small" minority...my mom would have been the middle of the road. Most of the "orthodox" believers have left that church for an AMiA which is prosering very, very well. What's left can not maintain the building/property. Does "SOLD" have meaning for you? It does for my mom and me and the rest of our family. If she had died before those who left, her ashes would remain with the TEC, with whom she does not agree with, much less want be buried with. And the very real probability that the property will be sold to developers...most of whom won't give a hoot about memorial gardens. This is a real concern.

How about the apartment complex that the TEC wants to build in Chelsea in New York at the TEC's General Theological Seminary? No one but the TEC and the developer like/want it. Certainly not the community around it...but the seminary says it can't raise funds any other way...guess we have to take their word at that, huh? http://www.nysun.com/article/47199

It's easy for you and the TEC to dismiss the realistic fears of others. Apparently it's too difficult a task for a simple answer to a simple question: What are you going to be accountable to and with, since it isn't Scripture? By not answering the question, you and the TEC have answered it: There is no accountability. And this is simply not acceptable.

Padre Wayne said...

anonymous posted..."without any concern or care to rest of us in the TEC who vehemently disagree with the direction YOU/TEC "feel" the Spirit is calling YOU/TEC, or the rest of the AC when you've been called into accountability to stop what you/TEC are doing!"

You have no right to assume that I have no concern or do not care about others in TEC or the AC. The problem is that I do care very much. If I didn't care, it would be me walking away from TEC, and just plain "giving up" on people who disagree with me. But I am not walking away and I'm not giving up. In Christ there is always hope.

I'm very sorry about your mother's situation. I weep every time I see a "for sale" sign on a church -- any church. But I also recall how our faith is not limited to what we do in a building -- our faith shines by what we do outside and beyond the building we call church. And while I can get as sentimental as anyone over the church where I was baptized, or where I was confirmed, or where I had moments of quiet prayer, I need to remember that it is, after all, a building.

The "apartment complex" you mention that The General Theological Seminary has proposed is hardly a complex at all (at least not when you look at Trump Tower!). General Seminary, its faculty, staff, students, and alumni are mightily concerned with maintaining the historical and architectural integrity of "The Close" -- "raising funds" is necessary to maintain that integrity, and the proposal looks reasonable to me (an alumnus). I can tell you also that the Board of GTS is sensitive to the needs and desires of the neighborhood.

God bless you, Anon...

Anonymous said...

Padre Wayne - I apologize that you were offended by what I wrote, but if you will re-read:

You wrote that "I believe the leaders of the Diocese (and TEC) have behaved with a sense of responsibility -- to wit, understanding and acknowledging that we have caused division within the Anglican Communion, all the while recognizing that the Holy Spirit might be leading us in a new direction. What they/we are not willing to do is shrink from our responsibility to -- ultimately -- God for the sake of "unity." "

I wrote that "the TEC behaves as an autonomous provice in the AC" - without any concern or care to rest of us in the TEC who vehemently disagree with the direction YOU/TEC "feel" the Spirit is calling YOU/TEC, or the rest of the AC when you've been called into accountability to stop what you/TEC are doing!"

How is what I said wrong? I didn't say YOU did, I said the TEC. I do feel you lumped yourself in with the TEC when you wrote "they/we", hence my adding YOU further on. However, you have failed to address any of the real points of anything I have said/asked.

My point about my mother is that she is middle of the road and doesn't agree with what the TEC's been up to for 40+ years to the point she does not want her remains left in/on a TEC property. She's blessed that she hasn't died yet in that aspect alone. It's not about the building for her or me. She is spiritually WOUNDED by what the TEC is doing, as MANY others have been. She is among a large number who just left. And the dead can't speak from the grave, can they? But the TEC is waving the banner about preserving the legacy of property for the future. The actual legacy of the souls who built and cared for the buildling while doing the ministry for and to others has no merit. AT WHAT COST??? Are one of these churches yours? The very high majority of a significant number of people have chosen not to be on the path that TEC has chosen to walk apart...from them, from the rest of the AC. Where is the democracy here that the TEC touts for General Convention?

Me, I plan on having my ashes flung on the ocean. I can walk away from the buildings and the trappings...and may yet. While those of us were out there doing the work, a small minority took over using "procecures" to the point that, now, my "church" doesn't even remotely represent what I was raised in.

If you haven't, please read Greg Griffith's "predictions" on Tanzania at Stand Firm. It's people like Greg who remind me what I'm banging my head against the wall for...the faces of those people I had communion with Sunday and every day previously across this country and beyond.

AS far as the apartment complex/whatever, the article stands on its own: it cites at least three different groups unhappy with the project who are in opposition and are fighting it. You write, "I can tell you also that the Board of GTS is sensitive to the needs and desires of the neighborhood." Doesn't sound like it in the article.

But you still haven't answered my question about who draws the line, where is the accountability, etc.

It would be my wish that the TEC would just let us go so we can continue with what God is calling us to do. The Spirit isn't leading all of us down the TEC's path. So to insist that we all be "reconciled" to the TEC's new thing or leave everything behind - I don't see Christ in that.

May God bless you. I will not be continuing this exchange further.

BabyBlue said...

Been thinking about having a Masquerade Ball for all the CafeAnons on Shrove Tuesday. With Mardi Gras coming up, that might be a good night for all our CafeAnons to don their masks and dance the night away. Will play fun music. Stay tuned.

Beads and Tinfoil Hats are, as always, optional. Bring a box of crayons for the kids.

bb