tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post8618075163123408891..comments2024-03-27T08:46:54.369-04:00Comments on BabyBlueOnline: The Grand AssumptionAnonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17490745238430648958noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-34559990116097176722007-10-11T12:01:00.000-04:002007-10-11T12:01:00.000-04:00So many truths, so little time.So many truths, so little time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-43141526285255354802007-10-11T10:05:00.000-04:002007-10-11T10:05:00.000-04:00Pardon me for my midwestern pun, but I think this ...Pardon me for my midwestern pun, but I think this is hogwash. But, of course, I am not in your parishes, I am in one in Southern Maryland. Verna Dozier was one of the leading voices encouraging laity driven ministry and I do not believe, if she were alive today, that she would agree with you on this matter either. <BR/><BR/>I come from a childhood and young adulthood within Quakerism. You can find no more laity driven congregation than that. I joined the Episcopal Church in the early 1970's. <BR/><BR/>The forces that divide the communion would divide it with or without more or less emphasis on laity empowerment.<BR/><BR/>What is at issue here is not the reading of the scripture, but the interpretation of the scripture. The texts are no more or no less important to folks on different sides of this aisle. Informed laity, who have been deepened in their faith by participation in EFM and other experiences of learning will disagree vehemently with what these "breakaway" parishes are doing. Others, who have been similarly trained in EFM-type laity strengthening programs would agree with the breakaways. <BR/><BR/>For example, I have spent many years active in cursillo. I love spirit-led worship and music. The words in most Baptist hymnals are indelibly imprinted in my memory to the point that I seldom need to read the musical page. I was raised so focused on scripture that I know the words of the Bible as well as most Episcopalians know their prayer book. And I know that my spirit-led and filled brothers and sisters are often leaders within this "breakaway" movement. I really DO get where they/you are coming from. <BR/><BR/>I simply disagree in these issues of interpretation, exegesis, or more importantly perhaps--hermeneutics. I approach my son who is gay and Louis Crew and Gene Robinson and all my lavender friends with a mind and grace and heart that informs me that "I am like them" and they are fully acceptable, as I am acceptable, to Christ. <BR/><BR/>This is a heart-breaking conflict but it does not really separate us into to non-overlapping parts, as does a dichotomy. We are all Christians. We are living in a time of great paradox and mystery and we are having great difficulty listening to one another and discerning the Truth.<BR/><BR/>I am in a parish that is led by a strong laity presently. I have participated in Bible Studies in that parish for many years. I think most of the folks in that parish would disagree with your interpretation, but I do know that there are many others among us who would not. <BR/><BR/>For the present at least, we have found a way to be respectful and listen to one another. When my son and his partner returned to my parish at the time of my mother's funeral service last year I did not have to think for one moment about the acceptance he would find. I doubt though, that he would feel the same acceptance in some of these breakaway parishes. But then, again, he would be very poorly received in others that are steadfastly supporting the efforts of the HOB and the recent Convention decisions. <BR/><BR/>My point is this simply: there is no "purity" among us in these divisions we are facing at this time. There is no One Great Assumption. One side is not long on orthodoxy and the other lacking. Nor does one of us have the final corner on the Truth. <BR/><BR/>But we do our best as faithful Christians to continue our journeys, discerning as best we can what the scripture and Spirit are teaching us.<BR/><BR/>SharonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-91714442947001185252007-10-11T09:59:00.000-04:002007-10-11T09:59:00.000-04:00trialtrialAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-88567391150537693952007-10-10T16:45:00.000-04:002007-10-10T16:45:00.000-04:00When I say an Anglican church is Baptist like, I'm...When I say an Anglican church is Baptist like, I'm thinking of a church where the pastor is the ultimate authority and is not under effective episcopal oversight. Sadly, that is the case in many Anglican churches with oversees oversight. The bishop is wonderful, inspiring, totally orthodox--but can have no idea of the nuts and bolts of the running of the church. I believe Bishop Duncan addressed this problem at the recent gathering of Common Cause. And I pray the the three ordinals can be re-established in a new American province.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-78245393986581289042007-10-10T14:48:00.000-04:002007-10-10T14:48:00.000-04:00BB -- I think where Anglo-Caths pull back is "The ...BB -- I think where Anglo-Caths pull back is "The clergy's job is to equip the laity to do the ministry." Strictly speaking, even in the canons of the whole AC that's not correct (for it was tried in South America). <BR/><BR/>Clergy's job is to preform the sacraments and equip laity would be accurate.<BR/><BR/>Actually only the first part is needed for there are plenty of lay theologians around (including in the RCC, their license but often not ordained).<BR/><BR/>Also stating it this way has a dual advantage, Evangelicals tend to no have as high of a view as Anglo-Catholics on the sacraments (the latter often still holding to seven), so it can be oh yeah, we need this guy every once in a while but Anglo-Catholics do not actually have a problem with laity studying Greek to read the texts (ironically I only saw at a Ango-Cath parish) & more lay involvement in worship is even more folks to process (let alone march around the congregation on the feast day of the favorite patron saint).<BR/><BR/>You update -- "aye!" I think your getting what I'm saying between a vincible ignorant assumption verse deliberate strategy.Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00261766465382455822noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-86700770133279071652007-10-10T13:15:00.000-04:002007-10-10T13:15:00.000-04:00I attend one of the churches that was a part of th...I attend one of the churches that was a part of this conference. I was also on the conference planning committee. The re-constitution of our Episcopal parish, after a majority voted to leave TEC, was fully laity-driven from the grass roots level, as was the idea for this conference - which began with the idea of one parishioner at another parish from mine. We requested assistance as required from the Diocese in both cases; none was mandated from above. I direct and teach Adult Education in our parish. I devise the cirriculum, choose the books, and prepare the materials without direction by either clergy or Bishops (is that also true at Truro?). I read Scripture and commentaries as a part of my daily routine of self-education, and form my own discernments. Our parish is comprised of diverse individuals who are valued for the variety of testimonies they bring to the table as derived from their various backgrounds. The only Grand Assumption I operate under is that all are welcome to introduce any idea or discernment within our midst as I am also free to introduce the discernments I've deduced from Holy Scripture, except perhaps for one: that there is only one way to discern Scripture and if I don't agree with that discernment, then I am not permitted, by clergy, Bishop or Archbishop, to hold that discernment, discuss it, or teach it in my class (is it the same way at Truro?). There is no Grand Assumption that drives our parish; what does drive us is the hard work and good will of a beloved laity in a cherished community that takes to heart the Scriptural command of hospitality as its grandest operating assumption, and lives it out with intention and purpose.The Spotsyltuckianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09043511735831648182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-75149213847813970932007-10-10T12:25:00.000-04:002007-10-10T12:25:00.000-04:00If 7,000 people had read the scripture and studied...If 7,000 people had read the scripture and studied it on their own and came to the conclusion to walk, that would be one thing. But their study was "guided" by clergy, and others, in a extremely biased program of "40 Days of Discernment". It's naive to think that there's any less "clerical-centered assumption" in the ADV then the TEC.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-20912834147484241402007-10-10T11:29:00.000-04:002007-10-10T11:29:00.000-04:00Assumptions are vincible, strategies hold course. ...Assumptions are vincible, strategies hold course. I think TEC is doing a wonderful job at it too. My evidence is the collapse of the "Windsor bishops" in New Orleans. The gaining loyalty of the institutionalist is pretty staggering. If it were a mere assumption, that could be easily corrected ... this I think is deeperKevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00261766465382455822noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-5293720445819732702007-10-10T10:56:00.000-04:002007-10-10T10:56:00.000-04:00I agree with Roger - one of my own "journeys" as a...I agree with Roger - one of my own "journeys" as an Episcopalian was to learn that "Anglo Catholics" were often less attached to their "authority" and "position" than the other clergy, especially in Virginia where it's not easy being Anglo Catholic.<BR/><BR/>No, The Grand Assumption has to do with the idea that the laity are biblically illiterate and easily led. That's the sort of "clericalism" we're looking at here, that the point of the laity is to sit in the pews, put money in the plate, and aren't able to think for themselves - or read for themselves, as this article assumes. <BR/><BR/>bbAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17490745238430648958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-4160155094561720942007-10-10T09:45:00.000-04:002007-10-10T09:45:00.000-04:00110/7000 and naivete! I am reminded of the old sa...110/7000 and naivete! I am reminded of the old saying about ass-u-me. The hierarchy of the ECUSA/TEC certainly has made that true of themselves, their 'church', and their laity. And they quite excel at it, do they not? Perhaps, there is a reason for their existence after all: remember, the purpose of your life may be to serve as a warning to others.<BR/><BR/>I doubt they see it that way with their invincible ignorance that God uses irony.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-74996237817355838982007-10-10T09:39:00.000-04:002007-10-10T09:39:00.000-04:00Actually as an Anglo Catholic priest, I am not thr...Actually as an Anglo Catholic priest, I am not threatened or offended by the comments. <BR/><BR/>When A-C theology is truly understood and practiced it is not about priests being on pedastals but on their knees, praying and serving. The priests of the Oxford Movement went into the slums of London to serve the needy, and that did not diminish the high sense of calling of ordination. I think we A-C's can still do the same, when what we focus on is the theology of the movement and the seriousness with which we take the incarnation, and worry less about being fussy with the incense.<BR/><BR/>I don't believe there is anyone in my parish who does not recognize that I am the priest, the guy doing the sacramental actions. Still, I almost never wear vestments or a collar. The indellible character we priests believe to have received in ordination, should not be one that gives us power, but gives us more of the spirit of servanthood that was in Christ's character.<BR/><BR/>So, this Anglo Catholic is not offended ... at least not by my members thinking, reading the Bible and praying. There's no need to add to the assumptions being made ... OK?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-29217688422010412232007-10-10T09:33:00.000-04:002007-10-10T09:33:00.000-04:00Anglo Catholics are not necessarily indulgents of ...Anglo Catholics are not necessarily indulgents of clericalism. That's an assumption that because one is "high church" one is clerical. Not true. Low churchers can be just as indulgent.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-30569036837812359992007-10-10T08:59:00.000-04:002007-10-10T08:59:00.000-04:00BTW - Cute bobble head sheep, I love it!!!BTW - Cute bobble head sheep, I love it!!!Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00261766465382455822noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-89174899100859684372007-10-10T08:50:00.000-04:002007-10-10T08:50:00.000-04:00The laity have little conical standing. While I th...The laity have little conical standing. While I think Kendall's assessment is correct, 'manipulate bishops, bring fear to clergy and keep the laity in the dark' The Grand Assumption as you've called it is also the overall strategy rather than a blind supposition, maybe for some, but not for the strategist.<BR/><BR/>This post will divide people and is exactly what 815 wants you to do. Institutionalist and Anglo-Catholics will be offended by this for their own reasons. It's certainly more a congregationalist view of the world, which is exactly what a 815 strategist would desire to see. The "Clericalism" comment just alienated the Anglo-Catholics, you're lucky there is a female PB to be a worse evil, but this could earn mistrust which 815 is also counting on (that Common Cause will not bond as a single unit). <BR/><BR/>Do not be fooled. There seems to be much 'social engineering' going on and often reactions can actually advance a cause. I don't think it's an assumption as a strategy to isolate the damage.Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00261766465382455822noreply@blogger.com