BabyBlueOnline

Thank you, Baby Blue for remembering the families....

2012-05-28T09:17:43.865-04:00

Thank you, Baby Blue for remembering the families.

Being an Army wife for 30 years gives us a perspective that others don't have. No one knows when thy say good-bye that the loved one will ever be seen again. But military families are more aware of the possibility and so appreciate our time together as precious.

It's something that I wish others would learn from us!

Anonymous, ACNA has also joined with the Catholic ...

2012-05-26T14:02:45.782-04:00

Anonymous,
ACNA has also joined with the Catholic Bishops against Obamacare's assault on religious freedom and abortion.

Yeah! Nice to hear. I left a disfunctional AMiA ...

2012-05-26T11:40:20.461-04:00

Yeah! Nice to hear. I left a disfunctional AMiA congregation and am very happy in the LCMS congregation I joined. While there are some theological differences, the LCMS is solid in its theology and has recently even joined with the U.S. Catholic bishops in opposing Obamacare's assault on religious freedom and abortion.

ACNA has more in common with LCMS than TEC. I was ...

2012-05-26T08:04:54.205-04:00

ACNA has more in common with LCMS than TEC. I was in LCMS for many years. There is great compatibility here. If LCMS will affirm apostolic succession, and be willing to accept the legitimacy of all streams of Anglicanism in ACNA we could be looking at altar and pulpit fellowship. This is really a natural sorting process in the conservative/liberal realignment.

Steven - I have to assume you haven't had much...

2012-05-24T21:52:19.091-04:00

Steven - I have to assume you haven't had much time to think about this. Taking a snapshot at some point where it is clear that the departing parishioners have clearly reaffiliated and saying that restitution should put things back as they were at that point is eminently fair and reasonable. That's precisely what the court did.

If someone unlawfully occupies my house and I go to law to regain possession, the court is highly unlikely to say that the occupiers shouldn't have to return my cash box in the house when they finally leave because, if I had not been chucked out wrongfully, I would have spent my money to keep up the property. That is the scenario you describe. It is much more likely that a court would order the wrongful possessors to make me whole based on where I stood at the time of the seizure and then order the occupiers to pay me fair value rent and compensate me for my costs during the time I was out of my property.

By occupying the property when they left the Episcopal Church, the departing folks had rent-free use of the property for nearly six years. I have said before that I wouldn't mind offsetting those unpaid rents against amounts paid for upkeep during the occupation. But, essentially, the court and the Diocese have given the CANA group a much better deal than that. They have treated the maintenance costs vs. unpaid rents as a wash and just said to the occupiers, "put it back the way it was when you left." There can be no logical or ethical objection to that kind of compromise.

Scout

The problem with dipping the pre-2007 contribution...

2012-05-24T15:42:23.096-04:00

The problem with dipping the pre-2007 contributions in amber, which is essentially what the judge did (and putting aside the question of specific donor intent), is that, had those monies been left in accounts and the group departed in 2007, they would already have been spent on upkeep of the church facility. So why is the judge ordering those monies reinstated? It doesn't make sense, as it basically gives TEC double relief in that they didn't have to pay to keep up the property. Another issue to settle out on appeal. At any rate, there is whiff of desperate affirmation in the diocesan statement, almost as if Stuart Smalley had penned it. The Diocese knows that the potemkin group can't support the property, and thus it desperately needs that $2.8 million and also the ability to sell parcels (e.g., Southgate) that will now be encumbered throughout the appeal process.

In reading Anon 0937's comment, I see somethin...

2012-05-23T23:11:25.024-04:00

In reading Anon 0937's comment, I see something that I had not noticed before. It is the idea that pre-2006 donations to the parish, if they were designated not to go to the Diocese or the National Church should be given to the group that left in late 2006.

This proposition seems very shaky to me. The CANA group did not exist prior to December/January 2006-2007. Those donations were to the Falls Church, which was an Episcopal Church at the time (as it is today). Anyone attempting to restrict a gift at that time as not being for use by the Diocese or the National Church should have gotten counsel from clergy, vestry, treasurer or someone about the problems of trying to restrict use in that manner and it, of course, should have been addressed in parish meetings or from the pulpit during pledge season. But, to the extent those sentiments were clearly conveyed and recorded, the logical way to honor those requests as closely as possible is for TFC to use the funds on a going forward for parish functions. I don't think they are under any legal obligation to do so, and the Diocese certainly has a claim on those funds, but I would think it reasonable to ensure that those designations be retained for use in the local Episcopal parish, where they were received in the first instance.

Scout

The reasoning behind leaving monies contributed af...

2012-05-23T23:03:19.770-04:00

The reasoning behind leaving monies contributed after the departure with the CANA group is that, at that point, those contributing knew full well that the split had occurred and that they intended the funds to be for the new enterprise. At that point, the people occupying the buildings knew full well that a transition had been made to a new denomination. I take your point that the Episcopalians might have a technical argument that they had some right to these funds as long as the group that left kept using the physical plant of the Episcopal parish (while excluding Episcopalian worship) but that strikes me as hypertechnical and not really worth pursuing. The judge found a fair place to draw the line and, to my knowledge, it hasn't been subject to much challenge or cavil. One could scooch that date a bit to one side or another without doing much violence to Justice, I would think, but the January 2007 date that the judge selected seems reasonable.

But the comment I am responding to is from my brother, Steven, who seems to relate Mr. Burt's recounting of efforts by the departees to get cash in return for not appealing to specially designated gifts. My point is that I don't think this is accurate. The lines drawn by the court really take care of that issue quite neatly. It is up to The Falls Church and the Diocese, as a point of honour and good adminsitration, to see that donations submitted prior to the split are used for specific purposes if those purposes were clearly conveyed and recorded. After January 2007, there isn't a problem because all those monies are with the departing parishioners.

Scout

Following this reasoning scout, shouldn't the ...

2012-05-23T22:24:59.588-04:00

Following this reasoning scout, shouldn't the two million of the Anglican donors' money go directly to the falls church episcopal? It never belonged to the diocese of Virginia did it?

In the period of the Occupation (early 2007 to 13 ...

2012-05-23T21:46:01.925-04:00

In the period of the Occupation (early 2007 to 13 May 2012), donations by departing parishioners in the CANA congregation are the property of the CANA group. The court order was clear on that and I am unaware that anyone on either side of the issue is disputing that. If someone gave a donation to the Episcopal Church pre-2007 and designated the donation for Bibles in Africa or missionary efforts in Central Asia, I would think those restrictions would be binding on the Parish and the Diocese. None of that seems at all complicated or difficult to administer. This issue of restricted donations seems like an issue readily amenable to clarification and I rather doubt that it is a real issue. I understand the position of the CANA group re the appeal was that they would forego an appeal in return for a substantial cash payment. I am not in media res on this, but I do not believe that the sum demanded was related to disputes over earmarked donations during the occupation period.

Scout

I think that Mr. Burt is guilty of violating GAAP ...

2012-05-23T10:25:27.106-04:00

I think that Mr. Burt is guilty of violating GAAP principles insofar as he has recognized as revenue received the $2.8 million awarded by the court, notwithstanding TFC's intention to appeal at least that portion of the ruling. Anon at 9:37 am summarizes the situation pretty succinctly. To give you a few examples, one TFC parishioner gave a sizable chunk of money and expressly designated that it go to buy Bibles for kids in Africa. Others gave with the express intent that their money fund evangelism efforts in Central Asia. By dint of the court's ruling, these funds would be transformed into unrestricted giving for TEC. This to me presents a pretty straight-forward case of a violation of constitutional principles of free speech and free association, not to mention state laws protecting donor intent. It is a bit ironic that these monies would simply fall into TEC's lap when, next door in DC, the Diocese of Washington is spending tens of thousands of dollars in a lawsuit trying to prove that use of the Soper Trust funds for general expenses is consistent with the donor's intent.

Thanks Anon at 9:37. Mr Burt's statement impl...

2012-05-23T10:01:14.371-04:00

Thanks Anon at 9:37.

Mr Burt's statement implies that TFCA is trying to extort money from DioVA.

In reality, it appears that TFCA is claiming that a significant part of the money the court awarded to DioVA should have been retained by TFCA since it was restricted, and is offering to drop the appeal if DioVA returns those funds.

The dispute is over a substantial portion of the m...

2012-05-23T09:37:31.346-04:00

The dispute is over a substantial portion of the money in the TFC bank account. Here's my non-official, I'm not a lawyer and I did not sleep at a Holiday Inn last night explanation:

TFCE View: All funds no matter when or how they were given are now the property of TFCE, period.

TFCA View: It is established in law that stipulations may be put on charitable donations. The vast majority of TFC giving prior to the vote was stipulated not to go the national church nor the diocese. Therefore, a portion of the funds should be the property of TFCA.

Apparently, the diocese and TFCA could not come to an agreement on that division on their own.

"they plan to pursue their appeal before the ...

2012-05-23T08:24:52.945-04:00

"they plan to pursue their appeal before the Supreme Court of Virginia unless the Diocese (with the Episcopal Church’s approval) pays them a significant sum of money"

Does anyone know what Mr Burt is talking about?

The TFC-A argument is, for practical purposes, sil...

2012-05-23T07:41:00.294-04:00

The TFC-A argument is, for practical purposes, silly. A family member of mine was one of the founders of the reconstituted parish in the 1700's, and he personally paid to overhaul the abandoned property. So if parish membership results in ownership of all assets, I suppose I can demand that TFC-A turn over all its assets. So TFC-A ought watch what it asks for.

I'm more troubled by the fact that the Anglica...

2012-05-23T07:32:13.113-04:00

I'm more troubled by the fact that the Anglican parish continues to spend money on litigation, versus serving God. The case has already been to the state supreme court once, and the chances that the Anglicans will prevail are slim to none. Additionally, some of the rhetoric floating about from the Anglican side calling brothers and sisters in Christ "heretics," and similar things is just plain wrong.

I find it quite notable that the rector of TFCA is...

2012-05-23T03:00:24.932-04:00

I find it quite notable that the rector of TFCA is willing to pay rent to the Diocese to avoid disrupting his lifestyle. I guess he decided that packing up his stuff was going to be kind of inconvenient.

Perhaps you mean well Anonymous but since you do n...

2012-05-22T11:20:14.612-04:00

Perhaps you mean well Anonymous but since you do not include yourself your sentiment rings hollow

The comment that was removed from last night was u...

2012-05-22T10:17:00.931-04:00

The comment that was removed from last night was ugly in tone, but it speaks to a larger point. Healing must begin at every level, including in the blogosphere. I hope that Babyblue, along with others, will take this opportunity to take real, enormous steps towards healing.

Is it a blessing? That's a good question. Ha...

2012-05-22T00:02:11.054-04:00

Is it a blessing? That's a good question. Has God left us? No. He hasn't left the Anglicans and He hasn't left the Episcopalians. Amazing isn't it? We praise God in faith even as we weather the storms - in faith we say it is a blessing, not because we feel it is so, but because we trust it is so.

bb

That's what my pastor says too. I didn't ...

2012-05-21T09:03:34.533-04:00

That's what my pastor says too. I didn't find it to be a blessing. I'm still hurting.

2012-05-20T17:54:33.639-04:00

This comment has been removed by the author.

The PB had every good reason to think that there w...

2012-05-18T07:15:24.600-04:00

The PB had every good reason to think that there were a number of people who were trying to establish a denomination by taking properties used by Episcopalian parishes and converting them, without compensation to use by another denomination, despite the absence of any provision in canon law permitting this. I don't think any of us would think it wise to reward or encourage that conduct. However, if people leaving the church simply done what people traditionally do in that situation - find a new church or band together to start a new church - I doubt that the PB or anyone else would have done anything other than to wish them well. Now that the law has required people to do what they should have done out of a sense of order, judgement, fairness and plain old horse sense, the conciliatory words from the Episcopalian side are sincere and heartfelt.

Scout

Curious -- That was the contemporary style of serv...

2012-05-17T16:13:12.777-04:00

Curious -- That was the contemporary style of service on the video. There are two main services, one traditional with an organ and choir, and a second contemporary with a praise band (e.g., with drums). There is also a third service, smaller and traditional. Notwithstanding the eviction, these services will continue, with the smaller traditional service at 8 a.m. at Columbia Baptist in Falls Church, and the 9 (traditional) and 11 a.m. (contemporary) services at Bishop O'Connell High School in Arlington (for the next two Sundays services will be at Kenmore Middle School in Arlington, after that they will move to Bishop O'Connell). Hope you can come to one of them.

LOL, I doubt we will ever be in complete agreement...

2012-05-17T07:57:20.011-04:00

LOL, I doubt we will ever be in complete agreement Scout.

While I will agree there is no reason TEC nor ACNA should have to thrive at the other's expense, that view is not held by TEC's PB. (all the stuff about selling to anyone but breakaway congregations).

Does TEC believe the ACNA is actively working to supplant TEC? I think so. Does this view exist within the DioVA? Perhaps, based on hearsay...

The question I would put to those who see ACNA as the opponent is why would a young denomination waste resources in such a direction when TEC is in decline already?