tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post8644893675154524721..comments2024-03-27T08:46:54.369-04:00Comments on BabyBlueOnline: Is the Presiding Bishop looking to do a "Juan Williams" on the Executive Council?Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17490745238430648958noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-36070313141487542272010-11-30T16:03:47.903-05:002010-11-30T16:03:47.903-05:00Scout, you write: "I am not steeped in Borg, ...Scout, you write: "I am not steeped in Borg, but I know enough about him to think that his textual scholarship is not inconsistent with the conclusion that God and man are profoundly interlinked. One can be spiritually enriched by textual scholarship and still be faithful to the letter and spirit of the Creeds. I would be very unnerved to have as a priest or Bishop someone unfamiliar with Borg's work."<br /><br />Borg does believe that God and man are profoundly interlinked - though from reading him, I'm not so sure what "God" is for him - e.g., "God" might be little more than a word for that which he considers to be good - i.e., "God" might have as its proper referent, Marcus Borg's ethics. I would have to examine more of Borg to make a good call on this one.<br /><br />No, I don't take everything associated with Borg as "apostasy." However, I do take teaching people that Christ didn't rise from the dead, or that this is unimportant, to be highly problematic.<br /><br />Yes, one certainly can study Borg and be informed and inspired; I have myself. The same can be said about reading Nietzsche, Marx, Dawkins, etc. etc.. We end up getting in trouble when we bring this into the church as gospel, however. One may fruitfully hold courses on Nietzsche in churches; one may not however commend Nietzsche to belief in place of the Gospel.<br /><br />I don't think Borg is as significant as you find him, since you'd be concerned if your bishop or priest were uninformed about Borg. I doubt I've ever had a priest who was very informed about Borg; this has never bothered me. Borg does not, as far as I know, have anything to say which is significantly new, and also worthy of serious consideration, unless one is a "historical Jesus quest" scholar. Most of what I have read is simply a new hodgepodge of rather old ideas. My last TEC priest hadn't even read the four gospels through in English; we can't expect of our priests to have read too much.Wilfnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-15073077882253284662010-11-01T21:40:13.984-04:002010-11-01T21:40:13.984-04:00If a bunch of people leave a diocese or a parish, ...If a bunch of people leave a diocese or a parish, I would think that the diocese or parish continue to exist, albeit with a reduced complement. I confess to not being an authority on TEC canon law (I know just about enough to get me through a vestry meeting), but I am completely unaware of any mechanism or procedure under Episcopal instruments of governance by which either a diocese or a parish detach themselves, let alone separate with property in tow. <br /><br />ScoutAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-45129666938273199302010-11-01T10:57:06.650-04:002010-11-01T10:57:06.650-04:00Scout,
The theory is that dioceses are sovereign, ...Scout,<br />The theory is that dioceses are sovereign, unless, of course, it's the parish's leadership that wants to leave, and then it appears that the parish is sovereign. I find neither theory credible, especially when both are embraced by the same person. Talk about situation ethics!<br />DanielDaniel Weirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11430381764138066595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-79817165103196985542010-11-01T06:16:34.889-04:002010-11-01T06:16:34.889-04:00Hats off to your Anglican (I still consider TEC &q...Hats off to your Anglican (I still consider TEC "Anglican", but the shortcomings of labels is another pet peeve of mine these days) friends and fellow Christians. I have no doubt that my friends who left would have prospered under strong leadership if they had simply departed. I might even have stayed with them. But the seizure of property from those who chose not to leave offends me as does the absence of a credible legal and ethical theories to justify the seizure. <br /><br />ScoutAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-59962179441082515912010-10-31T21:50:01.568-04:002010-10-31T21:50:01.568-04:00Scout,
I agree that a lot of money is sunk. I hav...Scout,<br /><br />I agree that a lot of money is sunk. I have great admiration for the two colleagues who simply walked away from the Episcopal Church buildings and found new buildings. I drive by one of these each Sunday on my way to church and that Anglican congregation appears to be thriving, which is no surprise to any of us who know the rector.<br /><br />DanielDaniel Weirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11430381764138066595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-28094501908312032122010-10-31T17:41:54.407-04:002010-10-31T17:41:54.407-04:00Well, sure, Father Dan. If TEC weren't defend...Well, sure, Father Dan. If TEC weren't defending these properties, they'd save a lot of money, and a lot of departing groups would have fallen into some very valuable holdings. I'm always surprised the amount of attention that this issue gets. People all over the country are asserting property claims against the Church. Guess what? It costs a lot to defend these things. However, I doubt very much that TEC is spending significantly more or less on legal fees than are the departing groups. The problem for TEC, of course, is that it has no choice but to be a good steward in all of these actions all around the country, whereas any particular group hoping to take control of a building on departure from TEC only has to deal with that one property. All of TEC's expenditures are very visible in one lump or line item, whereas the opponents' fees are dispersed over a lot of geography and a large number of departees. Alas, all the money is sunk, on both sides. In the end, of course, the Church will at least have the value of the properties in most cases. The departing groups will never recoup their costs. It is all a terrific monument to human weakness, pride, arrogance, and folly. A tremendous, deplorable, avoidable waste.<br /><br />ScoutAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-73867683612139950292010-10-31T13:01:09.009-04:002010-10-31T13:01:09.009-04:00One additional thought about Mr. Haley's "...One additional thought about Mr. Haley's "concern" about the legal expenses of the Episcopal Church in the property litigation: is it possible that Mr. Haley hopes that he can erode support among Episcopalians for the legal strategy of the PB and increase the chances that his clients will win? Who benefits if the Episcopal Church abandons these cases?Daniel Weirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11430381764138066595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-17014946331088756462010-10-29T23:42:49.408-04:002010-10-29T23:42:49.408-04:00There is a marvellous thread over at Stand Firm on...There is a marvellous thread over at Stand Firm on the Nicene Creed and its relationship to the Filioque clause. I highly recommend taking the time to read all the way through both segments of it, including the comments. <br /><br />ScoutAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-37196275004161155432010-10-29T13:56:30.519-04:002010-10-29T13:56:30.519-04:00I have written a bit more about the Nicene Creed a...I have written a bit more about the Nicene Creed at my blog, The Thin Tradition - http://frdanweir.blogspot.com/2010/10/nicene-creed.htmlDaniel Weirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11430381764138066595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-39815239629316603882010-10-29T10:49:22.261-04:002010-10-29T10:49:22.261-04:00None of us is innocent in this grapple. We all und...None of us is innocent in this grapple. We all understand the Good News through lenses that are darkened. My lenses are, admittedly, liberal or progressive, others have different lenses. What I find frustrating in some discussions is the assumption that some understand the Good News perfectly and that their interpretations are the only faithful ones. One of the blessings of being in the Church now is that we are hearing voices from many places, voices that weren't heard a generation ago. Now it isn't only the voices of white male Europeans and North Americans that are being heard, but of Christians in Asia, Africa and South America, and not only male voices. My most recent book purchase was "Hope Abundant: Third World and Indigenous Women's Theology" edited by my friend Kwok Pui Lan. <br /><br />A comment about the Nicene Creed: the philosophical categories that were used in formulating the Creed no longer work. The Truth that the Creed points hasn't changed, but the Creed is no longer as helpful as it once was. I am not suggesting that we stop using it, but that we recognize that there are other faithful ways to speak about the Good News. Questioning the philosophical language of the Creed is not, I think, apostasy, as some seem to think. It is faith seeking understanding.Daniel Weirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11430381764138066595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-42734437088112879522010-10-29T07:51:05.891-04:002010-10-29T07:51:05.891-04:00I'm much more unnerved by priests, bishops and...I'm much more unnerved by priests, bishops and presiding bishops who appear to be unfamiliar with God's work.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-78377274375094852582010-10-28T22:51:10.947-04:002010-10-28T22:51:10.947-04:00Wilf - you seem to associate anything from Marcus ...Wilf - you seem to associate anything from Marcus Borg with apostasy. I am not steeped in Borg, but I know enough about him to think that his textual scholarship is not inconsistent with the conclusion that God and man are profoundly interlinked. One can be spiritually enriched by textual scholarship and still be faithful to the letter and spirit of the Creeds. I would be very unnerved to have as a priest or Bishop someone unfamiliar with Borg's work. <br /> <br />ScoutAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-7830937555904864262010-10-28T21:57:03.942-04:002010-10-28T21:57:03.942-04:00Weir,
I am glad that you have retired! You go, b...Weir,<br /><br />I am glad that you have retired! You go, boy!<br /><br />I have seen most of your posts on a few forums from the orthodox perspective, and you are always about doing what would be right for the liberal agenda.<br /><br />You are not innocent in this grapple. Peace!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-80049104711508651022010-10-28T21:18:30.178-04:002010-10-28T21:18:30.178-04:00I am sorry that there are some on this forum who, ...I am sorry that there are some on this forum who, on the basis of a handful of posts, have concluded that they know what I am all about. Now, that seems delusional to me.<br /><br />I would agree that only the US Supreme Court could make the Denis Canon enforceable in SC, which makes litigation there less attractive than in California.Daniel Weirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11430381764138066595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-288287836899390522010-10-28T19:49:42.772-04:002010-10-28T19:49:42.772-04:00Fr. Weir -- I should take a moment to congratulate...Fr. Weir -- I should take a moment to congratulate you on your recent retirement back home to Massachusetts, which I read on your blog (http://frdanweir.blogspot.com/). Your commentary here has always been patient in the face of heated rhetoric, regretfully from me at times I fear. Grace and peace to you.<br /><br />StevenSteven in Falls Churchnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-77171849227618847202010-10-28T17:28:19.694-04:002010-10-28T17:28:19.694-04:00Scout,
Evidence for denial (aka "reinterpreti...Scout,<br />Evidence for denial (aka "reinterpreting") of the creeds are too abundant not to see.<br /><br />Recently Mark Harris has revealed that he agrees with Bishop Spong on the creeds - http://anglicanfuture.blogspot.com/2010/10/anglican-covenant-and-smoking-gun-of.html - and he was elected to Executive Council.<br /><br />I know you were "unconvinced" by the article on Jefferts-Schori, but you failed to find her any back door to step out of - you could have at least found a flaw in the argumentation. To add to that, she openly admits that Marcus Borg has been her most important influence on her interpretation of Scriptures - see <a href="http://anglicanecumenicalsociety.wordpress.com/2010/08/03/what-is-schori-teaching-some-more-puzzle-pieces/" rel="nofollow">here</a> - meaning the "truth" of what we recite in the creeds is not in what we are saying, but something else - most likely simply a set of ethical affirmations, since we have little to pad out this notion of "the sacred" he uses which actually, I think he is rather unsure of himself, and uses the term since it sounds nice (there are very good reasons for not using the word "the sacred" for a divinity, this smacks more of sociology of religion a la Mircea Eliade - who is brilliant - but not a foundation for theology).<br /><br />It is one thing to have moments of doubt about things like Christ's resurrections. It's quite another to teach that the resurrection itself does not matter, but that it points to some kind of "higher truth."<br /><br />Borg continues to use the "sacred vocabulary." But this is all susceptible to reinterpretation - it's about this thing he calls "the sacred" which could be some sort of spiritual force (if it is, it is entirely different from God as revealed in Scriptures and is thoroughly non-Trinitarian) - or it could just be a set of ethical standards and attitudes. Borg never really tells us, as far as I know.<br /><br />Church Publishing has gone so far as to create a Marcus Borg-based instructional video with accompanying study guide, which it's been promoting quite a lot. Please realize: this is the track TEC's leadership is going down. If you do care about the creeds, it would be better to do something rather than to remain in denial. You will only feel worse, the longer you remain in denial.Wilfnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-2218632613256399482010-10-28T14:51:38.566-04:002010-10-28T14:51:38.566-04:00Not in this state. Nope. The Denis Canon NEVER WAS...Not in this state. Nope. The Denis Canon NEVER WAS according to the SC Supreme Court. So why has not TEC gone ahead and sued St. Andrews in Mt. Pleasant? <br />If it can do so, why not go ahead with litigation since the Diocese of SC is not planning to do it ? Perhaps because some one at 815 realizes that suing here in SC would be a futile waste of money ? <br /><br />I agree with Always HobbitsSaid, Paying attention to molehills and ignoring a mountain is what you, Fr. Weir, are all about.Alexihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09222877183938209659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-5899712753312628392010-10-28T14:32:00.834-04:002010-10-28T14:32:00.834-04:00One further comment about the Denis Canon: it seem...One further comment about the Denis Canon: it seems to me that since congregational property is held in trust for the Episcopal Church and the diocese, there is nothing wrong with the former defending property rights, either in partnership with the diocese or, if the diocese is unable or unwilling to mount a defense, on its own.Daniel Weirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11430381764138066595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-17277486779931298272010-10-28T14:11:12.050-04:002010-10-28T14:11:12.050-04:00Mr. Haley's might seem credible, but legally i...Mr. Haley's might seem credible, but legally irrelevant. I doubt that Mr. Haley is genuinely concerned about the Episcopal Church's financial situation, but is using the legal fees as another weapon against an institution that he appears to hate. I stopped reading his blog after many months of following it, convinced that all I would find there are attacks on the Episcopal Church and its leaders.Daniel Weirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11430381764138066595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-5033318836309663612010-10-28T13:58:55.356-04:002010-10-28T13:58:55.356-04:00For Fr. Weir. If, in fact, Mr. Haley and his firm...For Fr. Weir. If, in fact, Mr. Haley and his firm have been working pro bono for +Schofield and have been so working from the outset, his comments would seem credible, by contrast, if either he or his partners weren't, I would agree with you. He apparently bills at $300/hr. TBLAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-83404299771750267972010-10-28T13:51:19.407-04:002010-10-28T13:51:19.407-04:00There is no question that Mr. Haley IS counsel to ...There is no question that Mr. Haley IS counsel to +Schofield. Verification is available in the link I provided above. You may be obliged to register with the Court for access to the docket.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-9965929198059782862010-10-28T12:16:39.259-04:002010-10-28T12:16:39.259-04:00I would recommend to the individual questioning A....I would recommend to the individual questioning A.S. Haley to venture to his blog site and ask these very questions of him. It would be very interesting to see his answers. I am not sure that Anonymous would be happy with the answers he/she receives, but I would love to see them!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-48642351474376289392010-10-28T11:16:05.051-04:002010-10-28T11:16:05.051-04:00This is a discussion that has gone on for a long t...This is a discussion that has gone on for a long time and I am fairly sure that no one has budged an inch from their positions. If, as has been suggested, Mr. Haley is in fact working for Bp Schofield, his comments about the legal expenses of the other side seem absurd. Whatever the case, from my reading of Mr. Haley over the past year or so it seems clear that he believes in diocesan sovereignty and, given his opinion about the Denis Canon, perhaps congregational sovereignty.<br /><br />I do find it interesting that Bp Griswold's opinion about enforcement of the Denis Canon is being cited as somehow authoritative. <br /><br />I am sorry if this sounds like spin to some. It is, IMV, simply a restatement of a position I have taken for a very long time.Daniel Weirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11430381764138066595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-90136142638517132202010-10-28T10:27:33.859-04:002010-10-28T10:27:33.859-04:00Some years ago when this storm broke, I shared the...Some years ago when this storm broke, I shared the belief on this page that the TEC's (then ECUSA's) quest to pursue and punish those standing on orthodoxy would only result in a Phyrrhic victory. I believe that today we're witnessing the fruits of that coming into season.<br />Its clear too, that in becoming like Melville's Ahab, the PB will soon take down the entire ship in her quest.Andyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03516444685469895837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-40176579481232113592010-10-28T08:39:22.888-04:002010-10-28T08:39:22.888-04:00On checking Mr. Haley's website, I read his th...On checking Mr. Haley's website, I read his thread on the oral argument held on 21st Oct. He quotes from coverage by the Bee and adds his own reflections on the proceedings, however, at no point does he mention that he, in fact, was the attorney arguing the case for +Schofield. In the interest of transparency, that would seem appropriate. I am assuming that the reporter was Ms. Nowicki. I would not be surprised if Mr. Haley was her source. TBLAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com