tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post7871034140183696806..comments2024-03-27T08:46:54.369-04:00Comments on BabyBlueOnline: Live from the Diocese of Virginia Annual Council (Day One)Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17490745238430648958noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-18727099741529184402009-01-26T20:21:00.000-05:002009-01-26T20:21:00.000-05:00"The Standstill indicates that the action we took ..."The Standstill indicates that the action we took was not hostile." Quite the contrary, bb, as has been explained above. And of course, the Standstill ceases to be relevant as soon as it expires, an obvious truth that you continue to choose to ignore.<BR/><BR/>The rest of your post is interesting sleight of hand. As you well know, we are not talking about which cases went to trial first. We are talking about who went to court first. That was Truro and company.<BR/><BR/>And it's abundantly clear how the Special Committee's Report wound up DOA. If you choose to buy the story that CANA has tried to peddle about it, if you choose to think ill of Bp Lee, well that's up to you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-22559463920608534542009-01-25T17:11:00.000-05:002009-01-25T17:11:00.000-05:00Yes, it matters. We thought we were following the ...Yes, it matters. We thought we were following the Protocol and that we would go to negotiations - that was a plan. As I've said before, we were all ready talking about numbers. The Standstill indicates that the action we took was not hostile. That is NOT what Russ Palmore said yesterday to the delegates at Council.<BR/><BR/>We filed our votes with the court - those are the petitions. We never "transferred" property (because we believed it was our property so it wasn't necessary). We didn't take that step and so entered the Standstill, created for the negotiations that Bishop Lee was organizing himself. At least, that's what he told us.<BR/><BR/>It was a very emotional time - we were now going to try and find a way to remain in as close a communion as possible. That was the goal! <BR/><BR/>Now I wonder if, in fact, that was all a sham - and that he never intended to negotiate at all - even though informally we were all ready talking about numbers. I always assumed David Booth Beers intervened when he met with Bishop Lee, the Standing Committee, and the Executive Board on the Monday before we were to meet with the Bishop's negotiating team. Instead, days after that meeting with DBB Bishop Lee called the whole thing off and initiated his lawsuits, as well as Katharine Jefferts Schori initiating hers.<BR/><BR/>It was Judge Bellows who decided to take the petitions first instead of the Diocese/TEC lawsuits. He ruled that all the lawsuits (each church was sued twice individually, if you can imagine) would be put together into one big lawsuit from TEC/Diocese and then decided to deal with the 57-9 before dealing with the TEC/Diocese lawsuits. That was his ruling, his decision, not ours.<BR/><BR/>So we filed our petitions which the Diocese deemed not hostile as we see in our Standstill Agreement, then David Booth Beers met with Bishop Lee and the two committees and they decided to drop negotiations and sue instead. The judge decided to take the petitions FIRST and then, depending how that all went, pick up the lawsuits.<BR/><BR/>Since he ruled in favor of the 57-9 petitions, that dismisses Diocese/TEC's lawsuits (except for the one endowment at The Falls Church) pending the impending appeal that's promised to us from the Diocese.<BR/><BR/>But again, just to be clear here, it was Judge Bellows who decided to take the petitions first. Another court may have decided to do the Diocese/TEC lawsuits first instead. But the judge decided to the petitions first - petitions that were not considered hostile by the Diocese until after the Standstill Agreement was abandoned by the Diocese to file their lawsuits against the CANA Churches.<BR/><BR/>Unless Bishop Lee was all along just stalling for time with the Standstill Agreement and with the time it took to elect representatives to his Property Committee and intended all along to sue the churches and depose the clergy. But I just have not been able to bring myself to believe that about him.<BR/><BR/>bbAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17490745238430648958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-14839813650542135092009-01-25T11:36:00.000-05:002009-01-25T11:36:00.000-05:00"consisting" should be "consistently" in the previ..."consisting" should be "consistently" in the previous post.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-88861374372497942742009-01-25T11:35:00.000-05:002009-01-25T11:35:00.000-05:00If the Diocese's pants are flaming, yours are too ...If the Diocese's pants are flaming, yours are too BB. <BR/><BR/>Regarding my earlier post, you simply fail to understand that there is no need for a provision declaring the CANA cases not to be a violation of the no "civil legal action" provision unless <I>they would have been otherwise</I>. (And for you to suggest that the CANA cases are not in fact litigation is simply absurd, as we have debated before.)<BR/><BR/>And are you seriously arguing that the Standing Committee and Executive Board have no idea what the Standstill Agreement said? Get a clue -- as you should know from posting it, they both approved it (see the header).<BR/><BR/>Personally, I don't think it matters in the least who went to court first. But a lot of people seem to, as you do in consisting trying to rewrite history about what Truro and the others did (after years of planning).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-29226299746404789242009-01-25T10:40:00.000-05:002009-01-25T10:40:00.000-05:00Are you missing a sentence from your posting, Davi...Are you missing a sentence from your posting, DavidH? That makes no sense. <BR/><BR/>The Standstill was agreed as a place to stand while we entered into negotiations by joining <I>Bishop Lee's</I> own "Property Committee." As it clearly states, the filing of the petitions with the courts after our votes was not considered a hostile act. No, it was not.<BR/><BR/>That is not what Russ Palmore told the Annual Council of the Diocese of Virginia yesterday. He failed to tell Council that in fact, the Diocese did not consider the filings hostile and in fact, entered into a Standstill Agreement with all the churches that voted to separate. <BR/><BR/>We were at the negotiating table, that was the next step, and it was Bishop Lee - apparently pressured by David Booth Beers or perhaps, seeking a way out himself and used Beers as an excuse to back out, will we ever know? - who left the negotiation table and sued and deposed everyone. <BR/><BR/>That remains a fact, a fact still not told to the leadership of the Diocese of Virginia - so they authorize going into debt for $4 million. <BR/><BR/>Russ tells council yesterday that the filing of those petitions were lawsuits and the diocese is now defending itself, even though as evident in this original standstill they thought no such thing.<BR/><BR/>Their pants are still on fire.<BR/><BR/>bbAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17490745238430648958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-74760014715342547932009-01-25T00:15:00.000-05:002009-01-25T00:15:00.000-05:00And bb, as you surely know because we've had this ...And bb, as you surely know because we've had this conversation before, the Standstill Agreement is irrelevant, and even if it were relevant, the fact that there's a provision in there saying that the CANA cases would not be considered a violation of the agreement goes to show that they are litigation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-78867567763754148832009-01-24T23:50:00.000-05:002009-01-24T23:50:00.000-05:00RE: "You should seek it out, it's really ...RE: "You should seek it out, it's really life changing and can bring you some much needed happiness (a quick glance at your blog shows a great deal of hostility and anger)."<BR/><BR/>Yeh, BB -- all of those articles on Harry Potter and Bob Dylan! ; > )<BR/><BR/>I see it's the same old commenter saying the same old thing. But . . . she sounds so . . . hostile, so . . . angry.<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>SarahAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-79869295395594648232009-01-24T08:18:00.000-05:002009-01-24T08:18:00.000-05:00DavidH,As we learned in court here in Virginia, we...DavidH,<BR/><BR/>As we learned in court here in Virginia, we are dealing with branches of the same church. The intent was to remain in - as Bishop Lee told us - as close a communion as possible. The goal, of course, is reunion. How we get there - well, my prayer is Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. If our eyes are fixed on Christ (and that is a discipline, how often I stray!), then we will get there, God willing. But the "how" appears to be quite difficult, an understatement. Some, many, just bail out (even those who are in TEC or will be in ACNA) emotionally if in no other way, it's hard. But I think the key remains our relationships with one another, that, like a family, we try as hard as we can to show up with one another.<BR/><BR/>I've seen many old friends at the Council meeting and it's good to touch base, to put human faces on this crisis. Rowan Williams is on target there - to follow it up with action, though, well, that seems to be another story indeed.<BR/><BR/>I would support a listening process, if I hadn't all ready been through so many all ready. What these listening processes turn out to be are marketing road shows, that's what they really are and that's what Bishop Johnston revealed. He's made his mind up. I found that to be quite troubling. All anyone has to do is review the seven years of notes of the R-7 process the diocese all ready went through - seven years, which culminated in the Reconciliation Commission Report which led to the Special Committee and it's Protocol. Read history.<BR/><BR/>DavidH, as you surely know, we did not choose to litigation - it was the Diocese and TEC who sued us, not the other way around. As you surely know, revealed in the Standstill Agreement (which STILL doesn't showup on the diocese's website) the Diocese did not see the filing of our votes with the court (which is what those petitions were) as hostile or as lawsuits - the Standstll made that quite clear and I believed them. Is that clear? We were going to negotiate, that was the next step in the Bishop's Special Report process. We all ready knew what numbers we were talking about for a settlement, for heaven's sake. We were way down the road - which is probably what caused such alarm in Schori's administration when she took over as Presiding Bishop. Frank Griswald had made it clear that this was a diocesan issue, Schori made it hers.<BR/><BR/>As you must know, it was David Booth Beers who intervened in the diocesan process and shut the entire process - that took years to develop - down. We never sued anyone, as the Standstill Agreement illustrates clearly. The lawsuits from Bishop Schori and Bishop Lee were a shock. Which was probably the intention, especially towards the nearly 200 lay volunteers. It's so sad.<BR/><BR/>When the province is established I will make a decision. But for now, I remain an Episcopalian in exile. My parish welcomes Episcopalians.<BR/><BR/>bbAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17490745238430648958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-27744860151665392422009-01-24T05:56:00.000-05:002009-01-24T05:56:00.000-05:00bb, your "I'm still an Episcopalian even after vot...bb, your "I'm still an Episcopalian even after voting to 'sever ... denominational ties'" (to quote your ballot) is so incoherent it's funny.<BR/><BR/>But I'm curious -- do you think it's possible for someone to be in two churches at once (perhaps a Lutheran and an Episcopalian)? What will you do when Truro becomes part of ACNA later this year?<BR/><BR/>And I love how you spend time sniping at the DioVa for doing exactly what the Windsor Report and others would have them do (observe a moratoria even if they don't believe what they're doing is wrong).<BR/><BR/>Last, you and I both know that Truro spent years and lots of effort preparing to litigate. You then chose to do so the day after your vote. Maybe some members didn't understand what question two on the ballot meant, but that's what it was. It was your choice -- too late to whine about it or blame it on Beers now.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-21448990882550441242009-01-23T21:52:00.000-05:002009-01-23T21:52:00.000-05:00Dear Anon,Is it intolerant to say "You're wrong?" ...Dear Anon,<BR/><BR/>Is it intolerant to say "You're wrong?" Even so, I guess I'll have to go there. I've been wrong before and I know what it looks like. <BR/><BR/>Ever consider switching to decaf?RSchllnbrghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16473103729914120630noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-47527419038302407852009-01-23T21:35:00.000-05:002009-01-23T21:35:00.000-05:00It seems like you enjoy going to these things to s...It seems like you enjoy going to these things to stir up trouble. I don't recall Bishop Lee showing up for any announcement about a new province being formed, or being on the sidelines sniping when Martyn Minns was consecrated. <BR/>Secondly, it seems as if you're just as guilty as those on the other side of the spectrum. You criticize Bishop Johnston for not being open minded to listening when his mind is already made up. Yet, you're exactly the same - the difference being that your mind is made up to support discrimination, intolerance, and homophobia. You're just as open minded as those you oppose. You hide behind tradition and a literal interpretation of the Bible. They hide behind the amazing love of God. You should seek it out, it's really life changing and can bring you some much needed happiness (a quick glance at your blog shows a great deal of hostility and anger).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-40913518681805559872009-01-23T21:24:00.000-05:002009-01-23T21:24:00.000-05:00Sibyl, Truro includes Episcopalians as members (so...Sibyl, Truro includes Episcopalians as members (some in exile like me and some because they don't want to leave Truro and voted no - but remain with us in community). There was never a requirement that people had to stop being Episcopalian - their confirmation/reception still stands. We're all in the Anglican Communion.<BR/><BR/>The parish separated from the structures of an organization. I describe it like Aleksander Solzhenitsyn who found exile in America, but never stopped being Russian.<BR/><BR/>Roman Catholics seem to do it much better than we Protestants. I pass signs often that say "Inactive Catholics Come Home" or along those lines. Even if their members "leave" the Church doesn't see them as ex-Catholics, they are just "inactive."<BR/><BR/>I have maintained that this would be a far more interesting strategy for the Diocese of Virginia, if they just marked all the churches that voted to separated as "absent" or "inactive" and then waited us out, like General Convention did during the greatest horror to hit America.<BR/><BR/>But by calling us ex-Episcopalians or former-Episcopalians, when our churches have lots of Episcopalians (and Anglicans) in them is to miss a major opportunity. Frankly, it's just plain dumb.<BR/><BR/>The deal is that the CANA Churches are inclusive. You can be Episcopalian or Anglican and hold office in the Church. The confirmation/reception is recognized. The clergy needed a place to reside, but the laity did not need to that unless it was something they felt by their conscience they should do - and some have. Others have been confirmed into CANA and never were Episcopalian or Anglican. <BR/><BR/>The idea that people are "ex-Episcopalian" means that TEC is just a club, not a Church. We think like Protestants, not Catholics. It's rather interesting, don't you think, for a church that tries to offer an alternative to the Roman Catholic Church?<BR/><BR/>For me personally, I voted to go into exile. I am in a lifeboat - CANA is a lifeboat, not a Love Boat. We are out in the boats and we're putting together a battlegroup and we're heading to land. I still hold hope that we aren't heading for divorce - not because there is an abundance of righteousness and truth (or even evidence of hope) in TEC (or anywhere, for that matter), but because the Lord continues to work through men and women inside TEC, men and women who do His Will, spread His Gospel, and worship Him. <BR/><BR/>If we were in a different diocese, I'd be with them, like in South Carolina or Pittsburgh or Central Florida or Albany, Springfield, you know the list. I continue to pray that there is some way, even in this late hour, where we can set aside our litigatious weapons of war and negotiate, as we were setting off to do before David Booth Beers got sent down from 815 after Katharine Jefferts Schori took over from Frank Griswald.<BR/><BR/>One of the things I'm finding rather striking at this Diocesan Council is that there are some notable people missing - former leaders, traditional Episcopalians, who just seem to be GONE. Where are they? Where did they go?<BR/><BR/>bbAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17490745238430648958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-66885125526706603592009-01-23T21:06:00.000-05:002009-01-23T21:06:00.000-05:00Thanks, Anon - the "J" and the "K" are next to eac...Thanks, Anon - the "J" and the "K" are next to each other on the keyboard. We'll let the good bishop off the hook on that one!!<BR/><BR/>bbAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17490745238430648958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-5157566355560808722009-01-23T20:35:00.000-05:002009-01-23T20:35:00.000-05:00"I have been welcomed here - and it's one of the r..."I have been welcomed here - and it's one of the reasons I remain Episcopalian, even in exile." <BR/><BR/>BB, What does this mean? <BR/><BR/>I thought Truro was CANA or Southern Cone and in the ACNA.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-61042431740975888942009-01-23T20:32:00.000-05:002009-01-23T20:32:00.000-05:00Hans KUNG, that would be Kung, rather than Jung, t...Hans KUNG, that would be Kung, rather than Jung, the psychoanalyst.<BR/>If Abp. Morgan made the error it's easy to see why he can't get theology right either....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-72014018397332196932009-01-23T20:22:00.000-05:002009-01-23T20:22:00.000-05:00I hope the diocese votes to accept the more revisi...I hope the diocese votes to accept the more revisionist of the resolutions.<BR/><BR/>Best to have clarity.<BR/><BR/>SarahAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-63566202844988620272009-01-23T20:05:00.000-05:002009-01-23T20:05:00.000-05:00Back to the legal expenses. It seems to me that t...Back to the legal expenses. It seems to me that that the obvious question is what has the Diocese gotten for $2.4M and a continuing cost of $100k/year until the real estate market turns? The answer appears to be the opportunity to litigate to get control of a $900k endowment fund - and take their case up to the next court that will hear it. Doesn't seem to me the view of stewardship that they are trying to impress on the rest of us. <BR/><BR/>Not to mention that the $100k they are spending on servicing the debt would buy them their Canon of the Ordinary.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-80019490347015742872009-01-23T15:37:00.000-05:002009-01-23T15:37:00.000-05:00What a croc. The Archbishop has just wandered off ...What a croc. The Archbishop has just wandered off into at least three classic heresies in his current meditation.<BR/><BR/>We are supposed to be opened and enlargened by new truths. As if the truth of God has become old and needs to be updated. Jesus, he is saying, needed to learn and change his mind. The Syrophenician woman was inspired, but Jesus is confused. <BR/><BR/>Actually I'm voting for someone else as the confused one.<BR/><BR/>"The charge of the Gospel is obvious to us ... How open are we to learn new truths?"<BR/><BR/>And I thought the Gospel was something else. Now I'm confused.RSchllnbrghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16473103729914120630noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-43793338354012695932009-01-23T15:16:00.000-05:002009-01-23T15:16:00.000-05:00"liturgical pastoral responses"You know if it walk..."liturgical pastoral responses"<BR/><BR/>You know if it walks like a duck annd qucks like a duck, why should we cdall it a liturigical pastoral response.<BR/><BR/>A little honesty folks would be nice.RSchllnbrghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16473103729914120630noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-51503890445055901882009-01-23T14:52:00.000-05:002009-01-23T14:52:00.000-05:00No surprise on +Johnson, in an interview posted af...No surprise on +Johnson, in an interview posted after his election he described himself as a "process geek." The warning for folks is that anything can be moral if the right process is followed. <BR/><BR/>So there is a undefined "listening" that must take place (whatever that actually means), but he has voiced his position on the policy, once this vague prerequisite has been fulfill at some point in the future. Then there can be a process to institute these changes based on majority vote. <BR/><BR/>Situational relative ethics at it's post-modern finest!Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00261766465382455822noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-21857777530286772122009-01-23T14:49:00.000-05:002009-01-23T14:49:00.000-05:00BB:You know, my church increased its giving to the...BB:<BR/><BR/>You know, my church increased its giving to the diocese by 50% this year, from $2000 to $3000. According to the Diocesan minimum plan, they want from us some $40,000-$48,000. I've been dressed down for this from diocesan staff in the past, as in: "How can you not give the minimum now that we have made you a full parish of the diocese? I expected more from you." As if the diocese did anything to make us a parish?<BR/><BR/>So while they are listing the names of churches that most increased their giving (churches giving another 3 or 4% over last year), we've not been included. Oh well. I guess we simply don't measure up to the minimum standard so have not been included in the list of those who increased their giving. <BR/><BR/>Inclusive is as inclusive does.RSchllnbrghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16473103729914120630noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-62662832477091542532009-01-23T14:16:00.000-05:002009-01-23T14:16:00.000-05:00Bishop Lee's address spoke about how the diocese c...Bishop Lee's address spoke about how the diocese continues to "thrive." It was a word he used more than once. Yet, within a few minutes Bishop Lee took to speaking about cut backs in certain areas, in diocesan ministries and organizations. There was of course, no mention of growth in churches in the diocese or in a growing budget but instead we were given a reminder that among all the dioceses in TEC we here in Virginia are at the very bottom in parish giving to the diocese. <BR/><BR/>My Sr. Warden, seated next to me said quietly, "Kind of an interesting concept of 'thriviness.' "RSchllnbrghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16473103729914120630noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-5777699519462598092009-01-23T13:16:00.000-05:002009-01-23T13:16:00.000-05:00Perhaps our Barry is going to give them some point...Perhaps our Barry is going to give them some pointers on how to become the <A HREF="http://www.churchinwales.org.uk/structure/govbody/memb_finance/memb_finance_2006_e.pdf" REL="nofollow"> runaway success</A> that is the Church in Wales?<BR/><BR/>Bless 'em.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-6978357221363229372009-01-23T12:44:00.000-05:002009-01-23T12:44:00.000-05:00You know there's trouble when he ignores the power...You know there's trouble when he ignores the powerful Biblical message that Christ is the image (<I> ikon </I>) of God and uses other language like "window."<BR/><BR/>Oh well, seeing in a glass dimly and all that.TLF+https://www.blogger.com/profile/01650010433581488888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23327221.post-70805509509481112762009-01-23T12:15:00.000-05:002009-01-23T12:15:00.000-05:00Well, I guess it is very appropriate to have him a...Well, I guess it is very appropriate to have him as guest speaker since most of this year's resolutions are in support of the gay agenda.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com